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Thread: Refusing Homosexuals Service or Commerce

  1. #1

    Post Refusing Homosexuals Service or Commerce

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015...-court-ruling/

    I know to some people reading this, they will find my position odd, where it seems that I am often militant against what others see as acceptable. No, rather I am aggressive against any position, belief or propaganda in the Church that opposes sound doctrine. Sola scriptura (Latin ablative, "by Scripture alone").

    I think everyone by now is well aware of the defiant Kentucky county clerk, who continues to refuse to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. She said, ďTo issue a marriage license which conflicts with Godís definition of marriage, with my name affixed to the certificate, would violate my conscience. It is not a light issue for me. It is a Heaven or Hell decision. For me it is a decision of obedience.Ē

    Romans 13:1-7 states, ďEveryone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves." There is a gray line here, where in one sense we are to obey authorities, those who would govern this clerk. On the other hand, if the government would require we kill babies, then we would be committing murder, and violate the set ordinances detailed in Scripture. Contesting such a command would demand vigilance. Baking cakes or issued marriage certificates does not directly violate a cardinal tenant set forth, but rather challenges the individual personally about the sin choice of others. Different situation, entirely different results. The Romans were cruel to Israel, yet Jesus said to render until this corrupt empire what is due to the evil ruler, Caesar Augustus. You can be certain listeners and teachers gasped and doubted Jesus' sanity to propose such compliance to an evil and violating government. Jesus never once tried to set right the wrongs of his world, even when they tried to install him as King by force. His kingdom was of another realm, and his allegiance was only to One.

    Not that I condone homosexuals or any other type of perversion, however a Christian is not to resist a sinners personal choice based on conduct, where they are fallen, acting according to their base natures. They are the field ripe for harvest, not enemies to contest. "..Not at all meaning [avoid] the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world" 1 Cor. 5:10. It is impossible to live on earth without serving the unregenerate. Jesus was condemned by the scribes and Pharisees for associating with people of whose conduct they disapproved. The charge of eating and drinking with them which reveals to us that Jesusí enemies did regard him as complicit in their behavior. But he did it anyway. Christians who canít bake a cake for others or process a marriage license are putting themselves inside the bubble of Pharisaism.

    The only time scripture is definitively clear about separation or making a moral distinction about another person is due to conduct or choices of those in the faith alone. "But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people" 1 Cor. 5:11. The passage goes on to say, "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?" We are not to make distinctions against those in the outer courts, but instead anyone who is a brother or sister whose life or conduct is grossly sinful; they are to be cast out. "God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked person from among you"" 1 Cor. 5:13. Purification of the body isnít practiced today as it was in the original church. Tolerated impurity has a consequence. ďA little yeast leavens the whole batch of doughĒ as scripture mentions multiple times in different contexts. Allowance of lifestyle sin will contaminate the whole Church body as untreated cancer will devastate the body.

    Therefore scripturally speaking, it is problematic to support this womanís stance as a champion for the faith, rather she is making unbiblical distinctions of the fallen when it is only Godís divine act of providence to make distinction among the wicked.

  2. #2
    This is a great point, and one I wish were more broadly understood. Her role in her job is not to establish or interpret policy on behalf of the state. If she disagrees with the policy, and believes that element of her job violates her conscience (even though issuing licenses to marry is within the boundaries of the law) then she should quit that job. If she gets impeached, it will be for a legitimate dereliction of duty.

    God has defined marriage a certain way, and the state has defined it another. There's a problematic gap there. But... her employment is to carry out the State's laws, not God's. As admirable as her tenacity is, she is doing the Church no favors. This is not martyrdom. It is her recombining church and state at an individual level and imposing her morality as the trump card, denying someone's else's legal right.

    That's just not gonna get us anywhere.

    Thanks for expounding on this, Steven. It has frustrated me for a while; glad to hear your thoughts on it.

  3. #3
    I Love Jesus Suzanne's Avatar
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    Very well said! We are also propagating a misunderstanding of sin and God's amazing grace when we elevate one sin over another! Brothers and sisters, let us love and be people that have the sweet aroma of Jesus! The message of the Gospel should communicate something so much more than what is often poorly modeled and communicated, otherwise there will be no eternal impact!

  4. #4
    Under Christ Roger's Avatar
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    It seems you and I are on the same page this is what I had posted yesterday on one of the news feeds: County clerks--A Christianís Duties to the State ďEveryone must submit to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist are instituted by God. 2 So then, the one who resists the authority is opposing Godís command, and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. 4 For government is Godís servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For government is Godís servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong. 5 Therefore, you must submit, not only because of wrath, but also because of your conscience. 6 And for this reason you pay taxes, since the authorities are Godís public servants, continually attending to these tasks. 7 Pay your obligations to everyone: taxes to those you owe taxes, tolls to those you owe tolls, respect to those you owe respect, and honor to those you owe honor.Ē Romans 13:1-7

    I know many of the county clerks and most are devout Christians that don't believe in same sex marriage. They have all decided to follow the law. Because of separation of church and state, if you are an elected official or government worker you have to follow the law. This is not any different in the cooperate world or any other work place you follow the rules or leave. America is not the kingdom of God. There will never be any Gay marriage in God's Kingdom. Since we, the elect, are citizens of heaven we live by different standards than that of the world. The clerk is issuing a government document and it is not a statement of approval or disapproval. That wall of separation of church and state keeps the churches from being forced to perform the marriages. The apostate churches will do those weddings. This is all part of the great falling away prophesied in The Bible. The true believers will walk in holiness and be tolerant to those perishing hoping to snatch them from the fire.

    1 Corinthians 6 makes it clear there will be no homosexuals in heaven." 9 Donít you know that the unrighteous will not inherit Godís kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality,[d] 10 no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit Godís kingdom. 11 And some of you used to be like this. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." In 1 Thessalonians 4 we are told "3 For this is Godís will, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality, 4 so that each of you knows how to control his own body in sanctification and honor, 5 not with lustful desires, like the Gentiles who donít know God. 6 This means one must not transgress against and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is an avenger of all these offenses,[c] as we also previously told and warned you. 7 For God has not called us to impurity but to sanctification. 8 Therefore, the person who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who also gives you His Holy Spirit."

    The church is the failure to America with lazy preaching, easy believism, emotionalism, the lack of meat coming from the pulpits which have brought confusion to the flock. Most people you ask, who are living in sin, will tell you Jesus saved them from hell but was that Jesus' mission. He called us into adoption sanctification, service and transformation giving us power over sin. Jesus came to save us from our sins--not just the penalty of.

  5. #5
    Junior Member Rebecca's Avatar
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    I expressed that I disagree. I believe we have to look at all of scripture, not just certain verses. In the Old and New Testament there are examples of men and women of God disobeying the civil magistrate because of evil that arose. They were asked to do something or participate in an act that would defy God's Law. Daniel and his friends, Esther, Mordecai, Paul, Peter, the apostles, all disobeyed the civil magistrate. The Bible does point out in some of the verses you provided that we are to follow laws put in place by our governments because Christ has placed them there and reigns over them as King. Of we look at 1 Peter 2: 13-17, we find a significant piece to this puzzle. When is it okay to disobey the civil magistrate? When the civil magistrate does not punish those who do evil or praise those who do good, but praises the ones who do evil and punish those who do good.
    The reference about Caesar is not saying to take the side of the pacifist as the Jehovah's Witness do, but the context is that they were trying to trick Jesus.

    I think the best sermon out there on this subject is by a pastor in Bloomington by the name of Stephen Baker called Honor the King. You can find it on audio archives from the 2014 Clearnote Summer Conference Salt and Light.

    Jesus did not sit with sinners to promote peace. He always called those sinners to repentance and faith. We must always do this in love. What homosexuals may not realize is that Christians are the ones that love them the most. We are the ones who care enough to not see them perish forever.

    The American church has often painted Jesus as a Teddy Bear. We see Him as someone who winks at sin. We love ourselves too much and do not want to suffer being disliked by the world. We also put on a false humility and act as if the world seeing our goodness will bring about salvation. We are all sinners. Praise God for His mercy and grace. Luke 10 gives a very different picture of Jesus.

    If the government asks me to participate in something that violates God's law, I can flee, I can defend myself, and I can refuse. Those actions would all be biblical responses. This woman is standing for Gods Law and I do applaud her and praise God who is sustaining her. I believe we will all, very soon, be faced with these moral decisions.

  6. #6
    Good point. (I am concerned about her morbid obesity. Gluttony offends me.)

    I agree that her church should support her when she is justifiably fired for not doing her job.

    Though, her work could choose to accommodate her conscience, if they do so for others.

  7. #7
    Under Christ Roger's Avatar
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    The lady has been married 4 times and in an office where nepotism reigns. Rebecca read my commits above. She has given a propaganda outlet to the unrepentant. Our examples of Jesus and Paul was they focused on the Kingdom of God verses the kingdom of man. Neither preached against Rome, that I can remember, and that government was full of perversion. If we were going to be consistent we would not buy or sale products from cooperations that promote and give benefits for same sex union. The, fact is, it is just a government document and it is not approval or disapproval and it's her job to distribute it. The social security office is giving out benefits to them and nothing is said about that. We are to be tolerant and live in peace, as it is up to us ,by picking our battles wisely. God is tolerant, not the new progressive definition of acceptance, but one of tolerating that which is offensive--sin. It is no difference if you are in the military you have to follow orders. You just can't pick and choose which laws we will follow.

  8. #8
    The issue, though, Rebecca, is that the government did not ASK or otherwise compel her to participate. She ran for an office and got elected - and now she's using her beliefs as a justification for not doing the job she was elected to do.

    If she disagrees with the state law, or if it violates her conscience to administer it, she should not have voluntarily run for office. And if the law changed while she was in office, the honorable and proper thing to do would be to step down.

    Morality or not, the position that she was elected to does not give her the option to interpret or selectively enforce state laws, which is what she's doing.

    This is the wrong way to be 'right'.

  9. #9
    Junior Member Rebecca's Avatar
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    Roger Chaney, I would be very careful about the judgment of her married life. I have been married twice and God saved me from my sin. I know a woman who had four husband's because three of them died. I did read your comments above and I disagree with them. What did Peter and the apostles do when they were told not to preach the gospel anymore? They defied their authority and continued to preach the gospel. Daniel opened his window to pray to God, a public act of disobedience. Jesus Christ spoke to the governing authority of Israel at the time with rebuke.

    I agree we must truly stand for Gods Kingdom in all areas of our life even if that means not shopping at a favorite store any longer. We shouldn't pick and choose. We must stand against any evil we are told to uphold. God does not tolerate sin. He hates sin. He exhibits forbearance and shows mercy to some, His Church.
    Mordecai sure did cause quite a stir when he was asked by a government official to bow down to him.

    This woman is no different.

    The law did change once she came to office and it may be more honorable to step down, or it may proclaim God's truth. My husband was an officer, now detective. He will not obey an order given if it violates God's Law. His first authority is to Christ. I do recommend listening to the sermon mentioned even if you disagree with me.

  10. #10
    Junior Member Sarah H.'s Avatar
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    I was thinking of Daniel and some of the other examples Rebecca gave, as well. I don't have a hard stance for or against this—just questions as I learn more about what it looks like to live as a Christian in a hostile world.

    I appreciate all the points and hope to pray through this and learn more.

    Discussions like this are what I value most about this forum.

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