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Thread: Why Did God Even Bother?

  1. #11
    Yes, a person can have a profound discussion on alternators and how they generate current for system wide operations. But that person’s position to comment on the whole system with only knowledge of the "part" would disqualify him to give an opinion about its value and function overall. If you don't have a good grasp of the foundational subject, "good versus evil" in this case, the peripheral subjects discussed will typical end up with faulty conjectures.

    I listened to the program link you provided, and the imperative before his comment was he said is was a "philisophical" opinon. I like how he presented his hypothesis in that manner. Thanks very much for the sharing the radio program.

  2. #12
    Christ's Bride Johanna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmnahrwold View Post
    The original question of this blog post is this: If God already knew that Adam and Eve were going to fall, why did God go forward with his decision to create mankind?” So Jo are you stating that God did not realize that Satan would become the great deceiver prior to creating Him? How can this be if God knows all? If God did not have a per-ordained plan for the use of evil than why did God allow Satan up into Heaven to hear his proposal for Job.
    Chris, as you may have noticed in my first post, I steered clear from even trying to answer your question. Truth is, I cannot answer you now either. Why? Because your question ponders into something that is beyond the knowledge we are given through the Scriptures. Thus, the question itself and any response will be mere speculation. I do believe that the mysteries in the Scriptures are there for a reason... maybe to help us recognize we must humble ourselves before the Almighty, maybe to help us understand that God is beyond our scope of understanding!

    I will finish with something I found and read just today in Romans 11:33-36 which sums up perfectly my position in this matter:

    33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
    How unsearchable his judgments,
    and his paths beyond tracing out!
    34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord?
    Or who has been his counselor?”
    35 “Who has ever given to God,
    that God should repay them?”
    36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
    To him be the glory forever! Amen.
    Last edited by Johanna; 11-17-2012 at 06:02 PM.

  3. #13
    Church Elder Daniel's Avatar
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    Hello all,

    I see the points being made and understand why the creation of man is being tied into the "Good and evil" discussion. Since man fell from his initial state, walking with God, the whole question of where did evil come from enters into the discussion, although it is a broader category than "why did God create man."

    Let's look at this from a different angle - Why did God give us free will? My opinion is because He has free will, and we were created in his likeness and image.

    Where does evil come from?

    Did you know there is no such thing as "cold"? There is only heat. Heat in infinite in the sense that you can always make something more "hot". However, there is a limit on removing heat. When all the "heat" has been removed, you cannot make something any "less hot". (ie absolute zero -273 degrees C) Now we use the term cold to describe a lack of heat and it makes sense to us because we can feel the difference and cold is a very practical way to describe the lack of heat in something.

    Evil is much the same way. It is not an entity unto itself, it is simply the absence of “good” in the same way that darkness is the absence of light. When God created us in His image giving us free will He also gave us the potential to do that which He Himself would not do. This we call “evil” or “sin” or “falling short” etc. We use these terms because they are a very practical way of describing the lack of “good” in us and in all mankind.

    I’m not sure that this really helps in this discussion but it helps me when I am questioned with “Why did God create evil?” He didn’t create evil any more than He created cold or darkness. These things are simply an absence of something else. (Good, heat, light)

    So why did God create man? (Or angels for that matter) Johanna pointed this out and she is correct - the Bible does not reveal this. Trying to figure this out and making bold assertions as to the reason may lead us down the path of Job’s three friends.

    I have heard many explanations for this but they all seem to have one similar flaw. God needed something. He needed: fellowship, worship, a stage on which to act, someone to witness His divine glory. I reject all these. If God “needs” anything then he is not perfect and complete unto Himself. God in the form of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit had complete and perfect relationship, fellowship and community before the creation of anything. He needs nothing from us. So, when we are invited through Jesus Christ to become part of that divine fellowship and community it is that much more special because God gains nothing that He did not already have, yet we gain everything and enter into true everlasting relationship with the divine. WOW !!!

    Why God loves us that much is beyond comprehension. Why He choose this creation and this way of redemption is also beyond our ability to grasp. Why did God make heat and not cold? Why is light not the absence of dark? Why do electrons flow negative to positive? Why is blood necessary for the redemption of sin? I don’t know and never will in this life. In the next life I won’t care beyond the fact that my savior shed His own blood to cover my transgressions (lack of good). This is the creation we live in and the laws He has ordained. Without understanding I will still give glory to the One who, for whatever reason, requires blood yet provides it Himself for us because, beyond all understanding, He loves us and died for us while we were still sinners.

    “Behold what manner of love the Father has shown to us, that we may be called Sons of God”

  4. #14
    Follower of Christ cmnahrwold's Avatar
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    I think it does matter. When evangelizing over the years this question has come up many times. Me being me I try to give a rational answer. It might be wrong, but God knows that I have good intentions. Paul studied the culture and practices of many foreign lands and he was always prepared to give a response to defend his faith, and I imagine this bridged many opportunities to proclaim the Gospel.

    I view a simple response as the most reasonable. God does not have to prove anything nor does He need anything. It says in Scripture that God is good, and how a good tree produces good fruit. It says that after God created mankind and the world that He said that it was good. Redemption by giving your life for a friend is such a loving act and therefore it is good. When the New Heaven comes to pass it will be so good!!!! God is good therefore He does good things. If there was no potential for evil we as humans would not have the capacity to understand that God is good. Because of the contrast between good and evil mankind can start to understand the goodness of God.

  5. #15
    Church Elder Daniel's Avatar
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    I am glad that you gave a rational answer and were at the Saturday group.

    It is important to 'be ready to give an answer'. I know you study the scriptures and are careful to try to rightly divine the truth of God. I also agree with you that it does matter in the fact that it deals with us trying to understand God in our own limited way. Where it does not matter is, for example, using a different anology to understand the depth of God's love than another person does, as long as both are consistant with Scripture. Even Jesus used different parables to describe heaven to help people have a better understanding through the word pictures He painted. We all have a different way of looking at things and different pictures that help us connect with the truth. The importance here is connecting with the truth. I would say that we who have posted here are connected with the truth and are just describing the the mystery of 'why' in a different manner.

    If you look back through the posts you will see as an overriding theme the majesty, awe and wonder we all ascribe to God for his power to create and the great love He shows for His creation. The 'why' He did it really becomes secondary to 'what' He did, and is doing even now. I am sure your comments in the men's bible study had much the same effect. A question asked. An answer given in the hope we have within us. Glory given to our Father for His power and majesty. That is beautiful! God's people, seeking to know Him and understand the Him, even though it is beyond our comprehension. The motivation for this is love of the Father and love for our brothers and sisters in Christ. We want to better know Him and to help others better know Him too.

    So, if we keep the love aspect in mind when we discuss these mysteries, we honor the two greatest commandments - love the Father, love your neighbor.

  6. #16
    Faithful to Word Norm's Avatar
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    Created eternal

    Quote Originally Posted by cmnahrwold View Post
    In a men’s group this week, a good question came up during the discussion. “If God already knew that Adam and Eve were going to fall, why did God go forward with his decision to create mankind?”

    I helped with giving an answer to this question, although it was a short answer at the time. I have been reflecting on this question all week, so it is my hope that this detailed answer is easy to follow. This is a very deep question, and my answer to it is the best that I have to offer. Hopefully I answer the question properly, but if I don’t feel free to chime in or add your two cents.

    The overarching theme of the bible is a) Paradise b) Paradise lost c) Paradise regained. At the center of these themes is the cross of Jesus Christ. God knew and ordained that Jesus would go to the cross and die so that many would be saved (Matthew 28:20). This was God’s will that Jesus would be the way for eternal life even before to the foundations of the world was formed.

    4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4–5 (ESV)

    So if God knew about the fall of mankind and is in total control of the situation, since He is indeed God, why would he bother with the paradise lost section? Why not just go from paradise to paradise regained? We could have then simply skipped all of this messy stuff called life and Jesus therefore would not have had to come to Earth, to die for us as an atonement for our sins.

    We however, forget one thing. God is God. He is indeed the one in perfect control. He knows what is best for us. He is the Author of this story we call mankind, so He is the one who gets to decide the different chapters of the book. God’s purpose for creating this world was to have all of His glory in full display. The part involving the fall from God, redemption through Jesus Christ, and wrath to those who deny Him are all a part of this glory.

    The ultimate exhibition of His glory was at the cross where His mercy, justice, and wrath come to the forefront. The judgment of all sin was placed at the cross, and God’s grace was on display in pouring His wrath for sin on His Son instead of on us. God’s love and grace are on display in those whom He has saved. In the end, God will be glorified as His people worship Him for all eternity with the angels, and the wicked will also glorify God as His justice and righteousness will finally be vindicated by the eternal punishment of all unrepentant sinners. None of this could have come to pass without the fall of Adam and Eve.

    So in short, this life is not really about us, but it is about Him.
    When GOD created the first man Adam (Aramaic Md0 = ATUM e.g. dust) he was made in the image of GOD the father, GOD the son and GOD the Holy Spirit. He was called what we say as Atom like the atom bomb, because adam was made of protons, neutrons, electrons making up atoms and GOD breathed into this molecular shell called adam, the breath of life. When Adam arose alive from earth he possessed eternal "life" and when later he sinned he died (his spirit man's eternal life died). When that happened, all things changed on earth to be able to die and go to eternal heaven with GOD would take a work on man's part.

    Whenever GOD speaks, he breathes into or speaks a creation. It think it is important to comprehend that every word GOD utters results in some type of a creation event, rather for making or unmaking as judgment. Every word is without sin goes forth and creates (accomplishes) something.

    We cannot properly comprehend on the same plane that the Creator thinks on and thus when questions come up that causes us to think, it is not adequently the spirit realm. The closest I can get while thinking using this earthly mind would come by being very careful to understand the different words that were used in this example brought up in this writing being discussed.

    If we go to the Aramaic to read as Jesus spoke, it may help clear up questions that are brought up because of misunderstanding of the quotes used therein.

    GOD knew in advance what would happen if man did this or that. He knew in advance what would have to happen for that action. He knew what would be needed before he created man. In the garden of eden for example he had at the center of the garden, two different trees that were put there that when you look back after the fact, GOD had a tree of death and a tree of salvation put in the garden. It is said that the tree of knowledge of good and evil was a beautiful tree with desirable fruit. The other tree of life had thorns on it with fruit. One of the tie in's later in Scripture talked about a crown of thorns on Jesus head , thus the tree seen at the time of good and evil.

    I think this is a good question to get a person to put on their thinking caps because one thing I do know for absolute sure, there is NO mistakes in my King James Bible. It is the WORD of GOD. GOD does not lie or mislead us ever. This brings me to a point to close for now and that is we should look to prove GOD's word by using his word and not bring to pass questions that could cause a weaker brother or sister to doubt GOD's Holy word. If you get a chance, begin to study from the Aramaic language and be blessed.... Norm...............

  7. #17
    I think that it is more easy to explain though the eyes of one that saw the beginning and the end at the same time.

    The Father knew Adam and Eve would fall before he breathed life in his nostrils, but I'm sure the Father would prefer for his children, within their own free agency, to choose to come to the Father for no other reason than it being the right thing to do.

    I think it gives the Father great joy when he sees fallen man choose to come to him "just because I can" so to speak. But in order for that to happen, their must be other paths to freely choose. To cast one's vote in an election consisting of just one person is pointless.

    I honestly believe that the fall was a choice freely made, and like mentioned elsewhere, the Father wants true hearts not robots destined to follow a linear path.
    May the Holy Spirit always move within you!

  8. #18
    Follower of Christ cmnahrwold's Avatar
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    Wow what a discussion. I had no idea this question would bring about such a discussion. Thank you all for insight. Just wanted to clarify one thing though. This question did not come about just for my own personal amusement. This question has come up not only in my Men's Bible study, but it has come up several times when sharing the Gospel. It had occurred one time with my churches ministry in which we evangelize in neighborhoods, and it has come up a half dozen of times when I spread the Gospel on websites in which there are atheists and agnostics that discuss whether there is a God. This is why I asked such a question in order to have a reasonable answer. People have walls built around them not letting the Spirit convict them. It is my prayer that respectful conversation can soften their hearts in order for God to do His mighty work.

  9. #19
    Follower of Christ cmnahrwold's Avatar
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    Some further thoughts on possible reasons why God even bothered to create mankind, with full knowledge of the fall of Adam:

    What was God's purpose in creating mankind in the first place?

    "4
    even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1: 4-13, ESV)


    "25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” 32 This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. 33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband." (Ephesians 5: 25-33, ESV)

    "I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

    3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. 4For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, 5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; 8 the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." (Romans 12: 1-8, ESV)


    Watchman Nee summarized these scriptures very well "We only see history back to the Fall. God sees it from the beginning. There was something in God's mind before the Fall, and in the ages to come that thing is to be fully realized. God knew all about sin and redemption; yet in his great purpose for the Church set forth in Genesis 2 there is no view of sin. It is though (to speak in finite terms) he leaps in thought right over the whole story of redemption and sees the Church in future eternity, having a ministry and a (future) history which is altogether apart from sin and wholly of God. It is the Body of Christ in glory, expressing nothing of fallen man, but only that which is the image of the glorified Son of man. This is the Church that has satisfied God's heart and has attained dominion." (Nee, The Normal Christian Life, page 220)

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