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Jeanne
03-16-2007, 05:18 AM
Question was raised as to how people should be addressed. I have several opinions on this.

As an individual human being, a homosexual person should be treated no differently than anyone else. God loves them just the same; their issue(s) with Him are between Him and them. "Love the sinner; hate the sin." I had several friends who were homosexual; one actually helped me return to the church after having no interest for many years. I wondered about her relationship with the Lord, knowing that she was homosexual. But I realized that she's not the only one who has sinned, and that it was not my business, but hers. If she was not a Christian, I would have tried to help to bring her to the Lord, but she was way ahead of me on that.

Also, our pastor's wife and I were talking, and I was expressing that I wasn't sure what to do, or if I was doing wrong by association (I was a baby Christian at that time). Her response was, "Isn't it wonderful to know that it isn't up to US to judge, but only up to Him? Love the sinner, hate the sin."

HOWEVER, if we're discussing homosexuals as an organization of people with an agenda, trying to become as "normal and American as apple pie," I take issue with that in a HUGE, HUGE way. Homosexuality in the Bible is a sin, and although we forgive others of their sins, "others" aren't trying to push their sin on us as an alternative lifestyle. America IS a Christian nation; it was founded that way, and although there are those out there who are trying to remove Christ from this country, they cannot change history and they cannot change who we were and are as a nation. People DO sin; they go to bars, they drink, they divorce, etc., etc. But again, most people who sin know that they have sinned, and don't spend a lot of time trying to encourage others to do the same. I am totally against the homosexual agenda, and I am sick and tired of every single television show having homosexual couples, as though to try to convince us that 50% of our population is homosexual, anyway, so we might as well give in.

And that's my opinion on that.

SERay
03-16-2007, 05:49 AM
Not much I can add to that... Well put!

Miguel
03-16-2007, 09:24 AM
Hi i wanted to thank the Admin for inviting me to this forum, I wanted to also thank you for your comment, as a Child I experanced these practices on two occasions, I dont believe people are born with homosexual tendences, but because of sin we act acordingly to our own flesh, thus then we get into origanal sin and having experinced this it partly was very disturbing to me and effected my a part of my childhood, my perents at the time where dealing with leaving the children of God cult, and I suffered from alot of other issues.

beside the point, it is true that Christ died for the sinner, but he also hates it when we sin, this makes us set apart from God, and not God from us, because God cannot look upon sin, as commanded in scripture we love the sinner but we can in no way justify a homosexual lifestyle and practice, as the Bible says that sinners need to repent from all sin's I do street evangelism work and it is hard some times because most of the opposition comes from "so-called" "Christians" that do not agree that the gospel should be preach, the Bible says the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, homosexuals need saving as the moslems etc.

I believe that Homosexuality is a bigger issue then Islam in the UK, te Gay and Lesbian lobby wants to remove freespeach so that in being a Christian would be that it would need to be confined in a building and not out on the street in public, the aim is to remove the bible aventually.

The Gay rights movement made it clear when they where protesting "where at war against the Church and against God", because they hate the word of God, as Manchester England is the Homosexual capital of europe, come april 30 the new laws will be implace with would make any street preacher a criminal if they preach against the homosexual lifestyle or practice, when people like my self cover on sinfull lifestyles such as, Lust, Envy, Coverting, Pride, Homosexuality, fornication, hatred, murder, strife etc.

They say i have to preach what is apropreate but I can mention any other sin other then the homosexual lifestyle, this i will not obmitt from my preaching, it is not simply we should consentraite on the homosexual issue but all sin.

but when they go against the Bible, i have to brake the law to obey God, and as such their is a plague in the United Kingdom, God will rise up islam in the west just as he did with Israel when he lead them into captiverty into babylon.

the West is being judged, while Christianity is thriving in the far east, Christinity is declining in the west, the Bible has lost all of its influences in the UK.

In the next threads i will explain why.

Miguel

CarlSW
03-18-2007, 07:58 PM
A lot of people don't see gay rights as a question of anyone approving of homosexuality.

There are people who are harassed (vandalism, threats of violence, etc.), bullied, and not treated fairly or justly. To turn a deaf ear on such matters, is not Christian.

That some people who are mistreated are sinners in one way or another, shouldn't surprise anyone who believes that we all are sinners.

It seems to me it's pretty simple: don't like homosexuality, fine; don't approve of homosexual actions, fine; say so in public, fine; but also be against harassment, bullying, injustice, and speak against the sort of unfairness that would treat whole groups of people as second-class or third-rate citizens.

People get riled up and on either side people will want their emotions recognized on the subject, and it gets personal, gay people get frustrated at lies that are sometimes made against them, and people who are against homosexual behavior get frustrated at the assumptions that their disagreement is something more obnoxious when it isn't, and then the next thing you know someone is saying how it's unjust to not accept homosexual behavior as moral and another person is saying how it's wrong for the government to even consider gay rights -- in those examples both are missing key points: injustice is about people being harmed or mistreated or treated unfairly, not about disagreements over moral judgment; governments are supposed to recognize certain civil and human rights to all as a matter of principle, not to deny rights to people because they are gay.

I think people need to figure out how to get along in societies without trying to use the government to harass each other or without starting ridiculous fights amongst themselves.

Miguel
03-18-2007, 09:23 PM
you said

A lot of people don't see gay rights as a question of anyone approving of homosexuality.

My reply is

I dont believe that Christians should not be forced into bowing down to the god of Gay Rights, A Christian will act out of conscience because Christians are obligated to obey God rather then Man, Gay Rights dose more then aprove of homosexuality it states that every one must aprove of its practice when the God of the bible says it is wrong, a morel sin, acording to Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, God does not create a person with homosexual desires, A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice.

We also believe and teach that homosexuality is just as forgivable a sin as all other sins, God’s forgiveness is just as available to a homosexual as it is to an adulterer, idol worshipper, murderer, thief, etc. God’s love and desire to save extends to homosexuals (John 3:16; Romans 5:8).

Again we are not speaking out against any individual, we are simply dealing with the issue of Sin.


You wrote

There are people who are harassed (vandalism, threats of violence, etc.), bullied, and not treated fairly or justly. To turn a deaf ear on such matters, is not Christian.

My Response

If people are harassed though vandalism, threats of violence, etc, yes i agree it is wrong this is not what we are taught and this is in accordence with Christ, now tell me one Christian who has actively gone against any indevidual on the bases of vandalism, threats of violence, etc.

Speaking against sin is not simply bullying people into the Kingdom of God, God dose not support that, it is simply again denouncing sin not the indevidual.

You Stated

That some people who are mistreated are sinners in one way or another, shouldn't surprise anyone who believes that we all are sinners.

My repsonse

Name one case where a Christian has mistreated a individual because of their sin, yes we are all sinners and in need of a Saviour.

You Stated

It seems to me it's pretty simple: don't like homosexuality, fine; don't approve of homosexual actions, fine; say so in public, fine; but also be against harassment, bullying, injustice, and speak against the sort of unfairness that would treat whole groups of people as second-class or third-rate citizens.

My Response,

You're making an overstated generalization, the issue is not where a Christian likes homosexuality or not, to a Christian the issue is what God says, not the individual, its not for me to say whether or not homosexuality is wrong, as it is also not for me to say whether or not stealing is wrong, its for God to state it, and he does, the point being to a Christian the Bible is a authority we base our faith on, and looking at more of what the God of the Bible things about the Issue and every Issue for that matter, it is wrong for me to say stealing is wrong, but it would be right for me to say God says stealing is a sin, God says the practice of Homosexuality is a sin, and not I.

You stated

People get riled up and on either side people will want their emotions recognized on the subject,

My response

Well okay, the issue is about for a Christian's prespective how this will affect us, our freedoms to practice our faith outside the confines of a Church meeting, how this will affect Charities etc, this has nothing to do with only emotional aspects but practical aspects of having the freedoms to practice what we are obligated to obey.

your Statement

and it gets personal, gay people get frustrated at lies that are sometimes made against them,

my reply

ok you just made a generalization, first and foremost we are forbidden as believers to bear false witness against another, what Christian is spreading false rumours against any individual homosexual ????

You stated

and people who are against homosexual behavior get frustrated at the assumptions that their disagreement is something more obnoxious when it isn't,


My response

Again to a Christian it's not simply about just having a moral dissagreement, its about what God said not what I think.

God is my authority.

You stated

and then the next thing you know someone is saying how it's unjust to not accept homosexual behavior as moral and another person is saying how it's wrong for the government to even consider gay rights -

My response

The issue is that the Gay rights groups are at war with the God of the Bible, the soul aim is to remove the bible alltogether as this has happend in Canada.

Goto

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7664929225320091404&q=jeremiah+films

Watch the vid.

The issue is what the God of the Bible thinks of this issue, again not what I think.

You stated

- in those examples both are missing key points: injustice is about people being harmed or mistreated or treated unfairly, not about disagreements over moral judgment; governments are supposed to recognize certain civil and human rights to all as a matter of principle, not to deny rights to people because they are gay.

My Response

Under God Christians are not to compromise his moral position on this issue, for example a Christian can sell books to homosexuals, but God dose not allow two homosexual men to sleep in the bed together, and to marry etc. This is forbidden acording to the Bible, but we cannot refuse any sinner on other grounds, we are to show them love yes, but as long as that abides by the teachings of God, but we as believers of the cross are not to endorse or accept anything that goes against Gods word.

The Bible is our guide book, it tell us how to live, treat others, to love in the way we obey God, to bare witness to the truth.

You stated

I think people need to figure out how to get along in societies without trying to use the government to harass each other or without starting ridiculous fights amongst themselves.

My Reply

I believe that the goverment should not be involved in religous issues, or these issues, but Jesus said to be seperate to this world view and have a Christ Centered world view, Jesus said do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

You see, as long as we Christians are around, the world will never except us, Jesus said, the world hates you because of me.

CarlSW
03-19-2007, 05:36 PM
>> A Christian will act out of conscience because Christians are obligated to obey God rather then Man

As will non-Christians... as will people who consider themselves a different sort of Christian whether you consider them Christians or not.

>> Gay Rights dose more then aprove of homosexuality it states that every one must aprove of its practice when the God of the bible says it is wrong, a morel sin

Um, no 'Gay Rights' does not state that. There are people who are confused and say a lot of things, and there are people who are for gay rights who ALSO want people to approve of homosexuality or homosexual relationships, but that's two different sorts of topics.

Gay rights at its core is about the right of a gay person to be protected by police from thugs, vandals, people who would harass, intimidate, or use violence against them, and also to make sure that gay people are treated fairly under the law, that their civil rights are not neglected.

There are people who still disapprove of inter-racial marriages, and some of them actually look at it as a matter of religion, of Christian religion. Now, you and I may agree that this is NOT what Christian religion is about, they disagree. The will insist that their conscience tells them they should not support inter-racial couples. If they own a bed and breakfast, or have a service that may be used by people getting married, they may wish to tell someone at the front desk or at the day of a scheduled event/holiday, ooops, sorry, we don't serve your kind here. They might be sued, it is a possibility. Or the offended party might just get out of there and leave it at that.

In any case, when someone's looking for a hotel or when they've planned a vacation, if someone wants to make a moral point over the arrangements, the practical effect is that the offended party is looking for shelter for the evening, perhaps in bad weather, and they are being treated as a second-class citizen, it's like approving of segregation conditions.

If someone wishes to have a private club and have certain services for members only, then fine, but don't advertize PUBLICALLY. A public business is public, you know.

That's my main problem with some of the things you are talking about.

>>, acording to Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9, God does not create a person with homosexual desires, A person becomes a homosexual because of sin (Romans 1:24-27), and ultimately because of his or her own choice.

And when the subject is what religious views you or others have, there is a place for you to simply state that view, if you wish, and for others to disagree.

>> If people are harassed though vandalism, threats of violence, etc, yes i agree it is wrong this is not what we are taught and this is in accordence with Christ, now tell me one Christian who has actively gone against any indevidual on the bases of vandalism, threats of violence, etc.

Ever hear of Matthew Shepard? Ever hear of Fred Phelps? There are people who rally people against homosexual in very hateful terms. There were people at Mat Shepard's funeral protesting it and saying things about homosexuals goint to Hell at the funeral. I did a google and found a blog that said "Swaggart, poster boy for rightwing nutjob fundamentalists everywhere, explains how he would kill a homosexual for coming on to him and tell God "he died."

If you claim that Christians are perfect and that when someone does various things but claims to be a Christian ISN'T a real Christian, that's dogding the question. In the practical world we live in people do use Christianity as an excuse. Lots of bullies look for excuses/cover. Christians shouldn't LET them use Christianity as a cover, that's my point.

http://dark-sided.blogspot.com/2006/09/swaggart-says-hed-kill-homosexual-cant.html

>> Speaking against sin is not simply bullying people into the Kingdom of God, God dose not support that, it is simply again denouncing sin not the indevidual.

I agree, speaking against sin MIGHT NOT be bullying people, but for some people it IS bullying people.

CarlSW
03-19-2007, 05:37 PM
>> Name one case where a Christian has mistreated a individual because of their sin, yes we are all sinners and in need of a Saviour.

Well 'heretics' were tortured by Protestants and Catholics alike. There are Christian parents who beat a child to death and then say they were posessed, there was a case where an 'excorsism' resulted in death quite recently.

>> You're making an overstated generalization, the issue is not where a Christian likes homosexuality or not, to a Christian the issue is what God says, not the individual, its not for me to say whether or not homosexuality is wrong, as it is also not for me to say whether or not stealing is wrong, its for God to state it

Well say it or don't say it, that's fine by me. If anyone speaks rudely or arrogantly or with some enjoyment of counting the faults of others, they are open to Paul's observations in 1 Cor 13, or other responses that are appropriate to the manner and content of what was said.

>> Well okay, the issue is about for a Christian's prespective how this will affect us, our freedoms to practice our faith outside the confines of a Church meeting, how this will affect Charities etc, this has nothing to do with only emotional aspects but practical aspects of having the freedoms to practice what we are obligated to obey.

Ok. When handing out food in a soup kitchen, what could possibly get in the way of charitably handing out food in the soup kitchen? If someone doesn't want to talk about religion, what's so hard about saying "ok, well here's the soup"

IF what someone is about is simply being charitable, and/or IF what they are about is simply saying what they understand to be the truth to people who are interested, then I don't see any problem and I don't think most juries would see a problem, and I don't think there is a legal problem.

IF what someone is about is pressuring people who don't want to be pressured, THEN there are questions of harassment.

>> ok you just made a generalization, first and foremost we are forbidden as believers to bear false witness against another, what Christian is spreading false rumours against any individual homosexual ????

There are people who talk about homosexuality or about gay people, so sloppily, and so nastily, I could characterize it as slander, lies, etc. There are people compare homosexuals to pedophiles or to people whoa re into bestiality, either implying or directly stating that these things go together, as if gay people were mroe likely to be sexual predators or whatnot. To mouth off like that is a DISREGARD for truth, NOT a high regard for truth. If you don't seek truth, you aren't likely to find it, and in any case, not caring about truth doesn't sound very Christian to me. If someone cared enough for truth to look into evidence, they'd find that someone being gay is a different issue than someone being a sexual predator or bestiophile, the evidence does not suggest any causal link.

>> Again to a Christian it's not simply about just having a moral dissagreement, its about what God said not what I think.

Then it is a lack of faith and humility that many Christians are dealing with, if they get so frustrated about getting God's word out, as if their personal frustration were God's frustration, as if God was at a loss without their moral speaches.

>> The issue is that the Gay rights groups are at war with the God of the Bible, the soul aim is to remove the bible alltogether as this has happend in Canada.

That's a lot of assumptions and pretty general.

Exactly what about the gay rights movement are you talking about. There are people who want their own church to marry homosexuals, yes. But there are many others who are not trying in any way to change whether a church marries homosexuals. And there are even a lot of gay people who are concerned for gay rights, who aren't interested in gay marriage. And others who are only concerned that hospital visitation and inheritance laws are fair towards homosexuals.

I don't see any gay rights movement trying to take the Bible out of your church or home.

>> The issue is what the God of the Bible thinks of this issue, again not what I think.

But I'm not sure what you are saying.

If you are saying that in general gay rights is about sin and law, well I understand what you are saying.

But the law DOES protect sinners. Vigilantes can't just go out and lynch everyone who they think is having sex out of wedlock.

>> Under God Christians are not to compromise his moral position on this issue, for example a Christian can sell books to homosexuals, but God dose not allow two homosexual men to sleep in the bed together, and to marry etc.

So what's the problem? If you want to marry people, become a pastor in a church that doesn't believe in marrying gay people. If you want to run a christian-only bed and breakfast, don't advertise in the public telephone directory, advertize only to Christians as a Christian thing.

What are you wanting to refuse? By what actions do you think Christians must be able to refuse to endorse something?

There's plenty of hotels down the street from me that will take in unmarried heterosexuals all the time. If no one's getting beaten or killed or raped, if it's consentual adults, their business is renting the room, literally that IS their business. If someone wanted to rent only to conservative Christian couples, why advertize to the general public?

>> The Bible is our guide book, it tell us how to live, treat others, to love in the way we obey God, to bare witness to the truth.

Some people take it to say that homosexuals should be put to death today, by today's governments.

The governments of the free world aren't about to do that, but there are Arabic countries who are willing to do it.

>> I believe that the goverment should not be involved in religous issues, or these issues, but Jesus said to be seperate to this world view and have a Christ Centered world view, Jesus said do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.

Rights have a lot to do with the government not treating people unfairly, and public businesses not misusing their power.

Sometimes people in the world hate others because of injustice, unfairness, things like that, though. Claims of persecution aren't an excuse, whether they are quotes from Jesus or anyone else.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:47 PM
you may dissagree with the bible but your arguement is with God not me, your war is with God and against the God of the Bible, It is a mortal sin against God to comit such and Gods view is thst men need to repent from Sin, Sin is the issue as far as God is concerned.

If the bible in your view is a homophobic book then so be it, if God is homophobic then take it up with the author who wrote the book, i will not bow the knee to the God of Gay rights. here are bible quotes argue all you want but God always wins.

The Bible says "A man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh. " (Gen. 2:23, 24)

it dose not say A man will leave his father and mother and be united to another man and become one flesh, no its w o m a n.

Satan, has such hatred for God, has done his best to distort and destroy both of the institutions that God had instituted.

This included adultery (sex between a man and woman that are not married, incest (sex between close family members, either by blood or marriage), homosexual encounters (sex between members of the same sex), sex with animals,

In the worship of Ishtar (originally pronounced Easter). fetuses aborted from pregnancies brought about through these "acts of worship" were offered to the goddess. Often when a pagan nation conquered another, they ripped open the pregnant women to offer their fetuses to their god.

In God's sight is homosexuality, even more so than prostitution. Why? Because man in particular was created in God's express image.

The Ten Commandments define man's duty to God and his fellow humans

Exod. 20:1 And God spoke all these words: 2"I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

I. 3"You shall have no other gods before me.
II. 4"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.
III. 7"You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.
IV. 8"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
V. 12"Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
VI. 13"You shall not murder.
VII. 14"You shall not commit adultery.
VIII. 15"You shall not steal.
IX. 16"You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
X. 17"You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

Seduction and animal sex

Exod. 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife. 17If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he must still pay the bride-price for virgins. 18"Do not allow a sorceress to live. 19"Anyone who has sexual relations with an animal must be put to death.

Worship of the golden calf led to immorality

Exod. 32:1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him."

2Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." 3So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."

5When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD." 6So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry. [Others versions of the Bible say to play, to engage in sexual immorality]

Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. 8They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, `These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.' . . .

17When Joshua heard the noise of the people shouting, he said to Moses, "There is the sound of war in the camp."
18Moses replied: "It is not the sound of victory, it is not the sound of defeat; it is the sound of singing that I hear."
19When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.
21He said to Aaron, "What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:49 PM
22"Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered. "You know how prone these people are to evil. 23They said to me, `Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' 24So I told them, `Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.' Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!" 25Moses saw that the people were running wild and that Aaron had let them get out of control and so become a laughingstock to their enemies. 26So he stood at the entrance to the camp and said, "Whoever is for the LORD, come to me." And all the Levites rallied to him.
27Then he said to them, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: `Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.'" 28The Levites did as Moses commanded, and that day about three thousand of the people died. 29Then Moses said, "You have been set apart to the LORD today, for you were against your own sons and brothers, and he has blessed you this day."

30The next day Moses said to the people, "You have committed a great sin. But now I will go up to the LORD; perhaps I can make atonement for your sin."
31So Moses went back to the LORD and said, "Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold. 32But now, please forgive their sin --but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written."


33The LORD replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book. 34Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin." 35And the LORD struck the people with a plague because of what they did with the calf Aaron had made.




Unlawful sexual relations

Lev. 18:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: `I am the LORD your God. 3You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5Keep my decrees and laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD.
6"`No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD.
7"`Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her.
8"`Do not have sexual relations with your father's wife; that would dishonor your father.
9"`Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere.
10"`Do not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; that would dishonor you.
11"`Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father's wife, born to your father; she is your sister.
12"`Do not have sexual relations with your father's sister; she is your father's close relative.
13"`Do not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, because she is your mother's close relative.
14"`Do not dishonor your father's brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt.
15"`Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son's wife; do not have relations with her.
16"`Do not have sexual relations with your brother's wife; that would dishonor your brother.
17"`Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness.
18"`Do not take your wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.
19"`Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period.
20"`Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor's wife and defile yourself with her.
21"`Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

Do not lie with a man as with a woman

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:50 PM
22"`Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
23"`Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.
24"`Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you.
29"`Everyone who does any of these detestable things --such persons must be cut off from their people. 30Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.'"

Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute

Lev. 19:2 "Speak to the entire assembly of Israel and say to them: `Be holy because I, the LORD your God, am holy. . . . 20"`If a man sleeps with a woman who is a slave girl promised to another man but who has not been ransomed or given her freedom, there must be due punishment. Yet they are not to be put to death, because she had not been freed. . . . 29"`Do not degrade your daughter by making her a prostitute, or the land will turn to prostitution and be filled with wickedness.

Those who engage in unlawful sexual relations must be put to death

Lev. 20:10 "`If a man commits adultery with another man's wife --with the wife of his neighbor --both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11"`If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12"`If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13"`If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
14"`If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15"`If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16"`If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
17"`If a man marries his sister, the daughter of either his father or his mother, and they have sexual relations, it is a disgrace. They must be cut off before the eyes of their people. He has dishonored his sister and will be held responsible.
18"`If a man lies with a woman during her monthly period and has sexual relations with her, he has exposed the source of her flow, and she has also uncovered it. Both of them must be cut off from their people.
19"`Do not have sexual relations with the sister of either your mother or your father, for that would dishonor a close relative; both of you would be held responsible.
20"`If a man sleeps with his aunt, he has dishonored his uncle. They will be held responsible; they will die childless. 21"`If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother. They will be childless.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:50 PM
The way of the adulteress

Prov. 5:1 My son, pay attention to my wisdom, listen well to my words of insight, 2that you may maintain discretion and your lips may preserve knowledge. 3For the lips of an adulteress drip honey, and her speech is smoother than oil; 4but in the end she is bitter as gall, sharp as a double-edged sword. 5Her feet go down to death; her steps lead straight to the grave. 6She gives no thought to the way of life; her paths are crooked, but she knows it not. 7Now then, my sons, listen to me; do not turn aside from what I say. 8Keep to a path far from her, do not go near the door of her house, 9lest you give your best strength to others and your years to one who is cruel, 10lest strangers feast on your wealth and your toil enrich another man's house. 11At the end of your life you will groan, when your flesh and body are spent. 12You will say, "How I hated discipline! How my heart spurned correction! 13I would not obey my teachers or listen to my instructors. 14I have come to the brink of utter ruin in the midst of the whole assembly." 15Drink water from your own cistern, running water from your own well. 16Should your springs overflow in the streets, your streams of water in the public squares? 17Let them be yours alone, never to be shared with strangers. 18May your fountain be blessed, and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. 19A loving doe, a graceful deer-- may her breasts satisfy you always, may you ever be captivated by her love. 20Why be captivated, my son, by an adulteress? Why embrace the bosom of another man's wife? 21For a man's ways are in full view of the LORD, and he examines all his paths.

God is grieved by adulterous hearts

Ezek. 6:8 "`But I will spare some, for some of you will escape the sword when you are scattered among the lands and nations. 9Then in the nations where they have been carried captive, those who escape will remember me --how I have been grieved by their adulterous hearts, which have turned away from me, and by their eyes, which have lusted after their idols. They will loathe themselves for the evil they have done and for all their detestable practices. 10And they will know that I am the LORD; I did not threaten in vain to bring this calamity on them.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:51 PM
Ezek. 18:5 "Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. 6He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. He does not defile his neighbor's wife or lie with a woman during her period. 7He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked. 8He does not lend at usury or take excessive interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong and judges fairly between man and man. 9He follows my decrees and faithfully keeps my laws. That man is righteous; he will surely live, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Hosea 1:1 The word of the LORD that came to Hosea son of Beeri during the reigns of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz and Hezekiah, kings of Judah, and during the reign of Jeroboam son of Jehoash king of Israel: 2When the LORD began to speak through Hosea, the LORD said to him, "Go, take to yourself an adulterous wife and children of unfaithfulness, because the land is guilty of the vilest adultery in departing from the LORD." 3So he married Gomer daughter of Diblaim, and she conceived and bore him a son.

If one looks at a woman lustfully, he has already committed adultery

Matt. 5:27 [Jesus said] "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. . . . 31"It has been said, `Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.

Matt. 12:38 Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you." 39He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.



Regarding divorce and adultery

Matt. 19:3 Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,' 5and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh' ? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 7"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?" 8Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." 10The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry." 11Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Matt. 19:16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 18"Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, "`Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,' and `love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." 22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:51 PM
Those who sin and recognize their need for cleansing have a greater chance for salvation than the pretentious righteous who feel they have no need of cleansing

Matt. 21:28 "What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, `Son, go and work today in the vineyard.' 29"`I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went. 30"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, `I will, sir,' but he did not go. 31"Which of the two did what his father wanted?" "The first," they answered. Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. 32For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.


What comes out of one's heart is what makes one unclean

Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him `unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him `unclean.' " 1617After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him `unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") 20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean.'"

Mark 8:34 Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it. 36What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, yet forfeit his soul? 37Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul? 38If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels."


What God has joined together, let man not separate

Mark 10:2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?" 3"What did Moses command you?" he replied. 4They said, "Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away." 5"It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law," Jesus replied. 6"But at the beginning of creation God `made them male and female.' 7`For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, 8and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate." 10When they were in the house again, the disciples asked Jesus about this. 11He answered, "Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. 12And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."

Mark 10:17 As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. "Good teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 18"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good --except God alone. 19You know the commandments: `Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.' " 20"Teacher," he declared, "all these I have kept since I was a boy."

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:52 PM
Those committing homosexual acts received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Commentary: There should be no doubt in the Christian's mind that the current AIDS crisis among today's homosexual community is a result of their perverse acts, the reception within themselves of the due penalty for their perversion (v. 27). Nevertheless, it is the Christian's duty to reach out to the lost, so that some may be brought to repentance, and thus be saved.

It is also a sad commentary on the state of so many of our politicians that many actually court the favor of the politically active gay and lesbian communities. Perhaps the last paragraph above explains the essence of the makeup of these politicians who "approve of those who practice them."

Rom. 2:17 Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; 18if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; 19if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth-- 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

Rom. 6:18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. 19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Sexual immorality in the early church - Do not associate with sexually immoral people

1Cor. 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast --as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:53 PM
Those who are sexually immoral, adulterers, male prostitutes or homosexual offenders will not inherit the kingdom of God

1Cor. 6:1 If any of you has a dispute with another, dare he take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the saints? 2Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, appoint as judges even men of little account in the church! 5I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6But instead, one brother goes to law against another --and this in front of unbelievers!
7The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:54 PM
12"Everything is permissible for me "--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me "--but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food "--but God will destroy them both. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14By his power God raised the Lord from the dead, and he will raise us also. 15Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! 16Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh." 17But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.
18Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.


If you are tempted by sexual desires, it is better for you to be married only to a woman

1Cor. 7:1 Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry. 2But since there is so much immorality, each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. 8Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. 9But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. 10To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife. 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy. 15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife? 17Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches.

The Israelites were sexually immoral at thepagan revelry around the golden calf

1Cor. 10:6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry." 8We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did --and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.

2Cor. 12:20 For I am afraid that when I come I may not find you as I want you to be, and you may not find me as you want me to be. I fear that there may be quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, factions, slander, gossip, arrogance and disorder. 21I am afraid that when I come again my God will humble me before you, and I will be grieved over many who have sinned earlier and have not repented of the impurity, sexual sin and debauchery in which they have indulged.


The marriage bed is to be kept pure

Hebr. 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral. 5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. 11For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker. 12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment! 14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that --and shudder. 20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. 23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend. 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. 25In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures. 4You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God. 5Or do you think Scripture says without reason that the spirit he caused to live in us envies intensely?


Babylon seduced the nations of this world by her adulterous teachings

Rev. 14:7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water." 8A second angel followed and said, "Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries." 9A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Nothing impure will enter God's heavenly kingdom

Rev. 21:26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it. 27Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:55 PM
Rev. 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. 14"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. 16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."


Repent!!!!!!!!!!!


These Sexual Orientation Regulations (the “SORs”) apply to
England, Wales and Scotland. They were published on the 7th March 2007
and if approved by Parliament, they will come into force on the 30th April
2007 (parallel SORs for Northern Ireland came into force on the 1st January
2007).



· The SORs are intended by the Government to ‘outlaw sexual
orientation discrimination by goods and services providers in both the
public and private sector’[1].



· The Government accept that the Regulations raise “complex
issues” about how to reconcile “competing rights and freedoms”[2]. This law has serious implications for the freedom of conscience and freedom of
religion which have existed in this country for many centuries.

· The Government have said about the SORs that “this is not
just about legislation it is about ultimately changing the culture of our
society”.[3] They also claim that the Regulations are “the moral and
appropriate thing to do”.[4]



· The SORs adopt the approach in law that the right to live a
homosexual lifestyle should trump the right to live a Christian
lifestyle[5].



· The House of Commons passed the SORs on the 15th March 2007
in a Committee of 16 MPs in a procedure which was roundly criticised by
Lib-Dem, Labour and Conservative members of that Committee. The approach taken by the Government in giving only 17 hours notice to members of the Committee before their meeting at 8:55am was described as “bringing the House into disrepute”[6]. The 90 minutes given for the debate, involving only 1 MP (other than the 3 front-bench spokespeople) having the opportunity to
make a speech was described as “an outrage as far as democracy is
concerned”[7].

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:55 PM
Here are the points



· Christian organisations support the principle of outlawing
unjustified discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation.



· The opposition from Christians to elements of the SORs is
based on extremely important issues of freedom of religion and freedom of
conscience. It is a question of balancing rights.



· The Government has said “You can either be against
discrimination or you can allow for it”[8] which is a gross simplification of the
issues raised by the SORs. Discrimination cuts both ways: in making
discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation unlawful, the SORs discriminate heavily against those with strongly held religious convictions (see specific examples, below).



· The Government has not published a single piece of evidence
to support the need for these Regulations. The only reference they made in
the consultation paper to support the need for the legislation was from
“several accounts in national newspapers” [9].



· Both the Government[10] and others[11] have made repeated
comparisons between sexual orientation and race and sex in order to
justify the need to outlaw discrimination through the SORs. Arguments based on this comparison have not been supported by a single piece of scientific or
empirical evidence. They are therefore misleading and of no value.



· Attempts by supporters of the SORs to say that any opposition
to the Regulations is an attempt to “legalise homophobia and bigotry”[12]
deliberately ignores the rational, balanced and reasonable criticisms
of some aspects of the Regulations made by many in the faith community.



· Attempts to label Christian groups who oppose the SORs as
‘homophobic’ are attempts to stifle open debate about the Regulations.
Christians’ view of sexual morality is based squarely on the Bible’s
teaching that God loves everyone and that he created sex to be enjoyed
exclusively in the context of a marriage between a man and a woman.
That is not a homophobic view.



· Supporters of the Regulations say they are needed to “send
out a message that we will put behind us the days of violence against
homosexual people”[13]. This is misleading because the SORs do not deal with
violence, harassment or associated behaviour against homosexuals. There are
numerous existing legal provisions dealing with these things.



· The concern about these Regulations from the religious
community has been widespread and united. The Archbishops of Canterbury and York, as well as the Bishop of Durham and the head of the Roman Catholic Church in England have spoken out publicly in supporting those concerns, as has the Chief Rabbi and the Muslim Council of Britain. In Northern Ireland a
detailed joint statement was issued by the Presbyterians, Roman
Catholics, Church of Ireland and Methodists, criticising the content of the
Regulations and calling for amendments to be made.



· The House of Lords Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee
has “drawn the special attention of the House” to the SORs “on the grounds
they give rise to issues of public policy likely to be of interest to the
House” (15th March 2007)[14].



· The Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments (JCSI) drew the
“special attention of both Houses to the Regulations on the grounds
that they are defectively drafted”[15] in relation to the Northern Ireland
SORs. The JCSI are yet to publish their report on the England, Wales and
Scotland SORs.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:56 PM
· Amendments to the Regulations can only be made by the House
of Lords voting against them (this would allow amended Regulations to be
re-introduced by the Government).



Freedom of religion



· In Regulation 14 of the SORs, there is an exemption from the
non-discrimination requirements for organisations whose purpose is to
practice, advance or teach a religious belief. This exemption acts to
prevent, for example, a vicar in a church from being required to carry
out a blessing of a practising homosexual couple in a civil partnership.



· That this exemption is necessary recognises a basic
principle: “The Government is clear that nobody should be required to act in a way that contravenes their core religious beliefs”[16]. However, the way the
Regulations have been drafted manifestly fails to safeguard this
principle.



· Christians have argued from the moment the SORs were proposed
that the law should not force them to act in a manner contrary to the
Bible’s teaching by requiring them to actively condone any extra-marital sexual
conduct (heterosexual or homosexual).



However, it is clear (from the following examples) that the SORs will
do this. As far as Christians are concerned, the SORs are certainly not “a
big step forward towards dignity, respect and fairness”[17].



The SORs leave a crucial gap in the protection of vicars and
ministers[18] so that it will be illegal under Regulation 11 for them to teach their congregation that they should follow the Bible’s teaching on sexual
morality even where this conflicts with the SORs. For example, it would be
illegal for a vicar to cite the example of a Christian printing company asked
to print material promoting homosexuality, and then say ‘it is better to
follow the Bible’s teaching and risk being sued than to be complicit in sin by
printing leaflets promoting gay pride’.


The Regulation 14 exemption applies only to organisations – individuals
are not protected. This is illogical: Christianity quite clearly makes the
same requirements of an individual (that they do not condone sinful
behaviour) as it makes of a Christian organisation such as a church.


The SORs are inconsistent and discriminatory because they tell a
Christian that whilst in church they have (subject to 1), above) freedom of
religion, freedom of conscience and freedom of expression to be taught that
homosexual practice is a sin, outside the doors of the church, legislation makes it illegal for them to refuse to promote and assist homosexual practice.



Under the SORs an individual Christian GP, for example, would have no
freedom of conscience to refuse to give a reference recommending
homosexual parents as suitable for adopting if the GP did not believe it would be right / in the best interests of a child to be raised without a father and a
mother. This is inconsistent with the freedom of conscience afforded to
the same doctor under the Abortion Act to refuse to recommend / perform an
abortion.



The SORs give no protection to a church or other religious organisation
where they receive funding from the local authority to provide goods or
services such that if a church receives state funding to run, for
example, an overnight homeless shelter, it will lose all the protection under
Regulation 14 and would not even be able to refuse membership of the
church to openly practising homosexuals[19].


Under the SORs there is no protection for commercial Christian
organisations, however strong their Christian ethos. There is no doubt
that under the Regulations a Christian printing company will be acting
illegally if they refuse to print fliers promoting gay sex. This is completely at
odds with the Government’s promise in November 2006 that “I would like to
take this opportunity to clarify that the Regulations will not require
anyone to promote gay rights or a homosexual lifestyle’”[20].


Further examples under the Regulations include the fact that it will be
illegal for an Islamic wedding photographer to refuse to attend and
take publicity photographs at a gay Civil Partnership ceremony and it will
be illegal for a Jewish conference centre to refuse to allow its premises
to be used by an organisation promoting homosexual practice.



Under the SORs there is no protection for many voluntary organisations
which, although run by Christians who are motivated by their faith, are
not strictly 'religious' in the language of the legislation (e.g. a
Christian homeless shelter would not be able to hold the policy that ‘we will not provide services to someone if this were to promote homosexual
practices’).

The case (featured in The Telegraph, 12/12/06)[21] with Haringey
Council illustrates the point. The Christian lady running the voluntary Family
Centre explained very clearly to the Council that her position was "We
welcome gay people but we will not promote gay values". This was not
enough to satisfy the local council who threatened to withdraw funding from
the centre. The SORs will have the same impact in hundreds of other cases.



· It is important to note that it is quite possible to draft
the SORs in a way which strikes a better balance between the competing
rights, and the Government could easily have done more to safeguard the
fundamental freedoms of those who hold religious beliefs. For example, under
similar Canadian laws, the Ontario Superior Court of Justice held that a
Christian printer could not be compelled to print everything a gay or lesbian
organization brought to him where to do so was contrary to fundamental
beliefs (Ontario Human Rights Commission v Brockie (2002)).





Education



· The Government has repeatedly stated that “the Regulations
will
not require changes in the current curriculum nor will they force
schools to
change how they deliver education to their pupils”[22] and yet the
specialist Parliamentary lawyers who advised the Joint Committee on
Statutory Instruments only the day before this statement was made, were
adamant that the curriculum was covered by the SORs. The Joint
Committee on
Human Rights stated that this issue was in urgent need of clarification
by
the Government[23].



If the SORs do apply to the curriculum then they will make it illegal
for
all schools (including faith schools) to subject a pupil to “any other
detriment”[24] (defined by judges as meaning very broadly “putting at a
disadvantage”[25]) by the teaching that is given. The homosexual
parents of
a school child could argue that the child was ‘put at a disadvantage’
if the
school (even if it was a Christian school) was failing to educate
pupils
that homosexual relationships were just as acceptable as marriage
relationships.

There are already reports of schools who understand their obligation
under
the SORs will be to begin to promote homosexuality: “Fourteen primary
schools are already taking part in a £600,000 Government-funded study
aimed
at familiarising children with gay and lesbian relationships. […] Dr
Elizabeth Atkinson, reader in social and educational inquiry at
Sunderland
University, said: "The purpose of the project is to support schools in
meeting their requirements under the Equality Act, which will require
all
public institutions to meet the needs of gay and lesbian users.”[26]

· The Joint Committee on Human Rights has also expressed the
remarkably illiberal view that “the Regulations should clearly apply to
the
curriculum, so that homosexual pupils are not subjected to teaching, as
part
of their religious education or other curriculum, that their sexual
orientation is sinful or morally wrong”[27].





Procedural issues relating to the Regulations



· Between March 2006[28] and January 2007[29], no information
at all was given by the Government regarding the content of the highly
controversial SORs. When concerns were repeatedly raised, the Lawyers’
Christian Fellowship were told (in a letter from Meg Munn MP, 17th
November 2006) “We will publish a Government response to the consultation
setting out our conclusions in the light of the consultation findings in good time to meet the timetable for commencement”.

Miguel
03-21-2007, 06:57 PM
After the 11 month silence, the Government published both the
Regulations and their response to the consultation on the 7th March. Within 7 days they had expedited proceedings so that the SORs went through the House of Lords Merits Committee, the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments and the House of Commons Delegated Legislation Committee. Within 14 days of publication, the SORs will have gone through both Houses and, unless opposed in the Lords, will become law.



This procedure is undemocratic and makes a mockery of the Government’s
supposed commitment to listening to the views of the electorate (an
unprecedented number of whom submitted to the consultation on the SORs:
there was an “exceptionally strong response”[30] on the issue of
religious freedom in favour of broader exemptions).



· Repeated requests were made by MPs in the Delegated
Legislation Committee to postpone the debate. The requests were refused by the Labour MP chairing the debate. That chairperson declared that the only way possible to delay the debate would be for a dilatory motion to be passed. When an MP duly sought to bring such a motion the chairperson refused to accept it: it was not even allowed to go to a vote.



Not one Lib Dem or Labour MP (aside from their respective frontbench
spokespeople) had the chance to speak[31] about the Regulations, and
the only Conservative MP (other than their spokesperson) who was called by
the chair only had 2 minutes before the vote was called. Ironically, just
one week earlier Ruth Kelly stated about the SORs that “Good Government is
not about ducking difficult questions – it is about robust debate”.[32]



· In the time between their publication on the 7th March and
the Delegated Legislation Committee meeting on the 15th March, the SORs had
been withdrawn 3 times because of drafting defects. Over 20 changes were
made to the Regulations within this time and many of those changes affected the scope and substantive impact of the Regulations.



· In addition, in their consultation paper on the SORs the
Government declared that “We look forward to hearing your views on our
proposals, so that we can take these into account”[33] but it appears
that the responses were ignored in relation to the key issues. Although “a
majority of both individuals and organisations sought a widening to the
[proposed] exemptions”[34] the Government rejected this.



· The SORs are now due to be laid in the House of Commons on
Monday 19th March. On Friday 16th March there was a rumour that there may also be a vote on the floor of the House of Commons on Monday 19th March and not on Wednesday as would be usual practice in this situation. This news has come late and at a time when MPs may not have had time to realise what is happening and that there might be a crucial vote.



· We request MPs to be present at the vote on the SORs and to
vote against them.

















Andrea Minichiello Williams

LCF Public Policy Officer

0771 2591164

http://www.lawcf.org

http://www.christianconcernforournation.co.uk







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[1] Government SOR consultation paper, pg 7

[2] Government response to SOR consultation paper, page 6

[3] David Hanson MP (The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office)
Second
Delegated Legislation Committee ‘Equality Act (Sexual Orientation)
Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006 [Column 36]

[4] Ibid. Column 36

[5] See the Joint Committee on Human Rights (Legislative Scrutiny:
Sexual
Orientation Regulations) HL Paper 58, HC 350 at paras 44 and 52

[6] Bernard Jenkin MP, Twelfth Delegated Legislation Committee, Draft
Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations 2007, 15th March 2007
[Column
4]

[7] Ibid. Edward Leigh MP [Column 6]

[8] Harriet Harman MP (New Statesman, 29th January 2007)

[9] Government SOR consultation paper, para 2.3

[10] Government SOR consultation paper, para 2.5

[11] For example, Clive Betts MP, Second Delegated Legislation
Committee
‘Equality Act (Sexual Orientation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006
[Column 7]

[12] Ibid. Angela Eagle MP [Column 9]

[13] Ibid. Jeremy Corbyn MP [Column 22]

[14] 14th Report of the session 2006-07

[15] Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments 24th January 2007
(published
30th January 2007) (HL Paper 37, HC 82-vi)

[16] The Government response to the SOR consultation, page 10

[17] Ibid. Page 7

[18] This appears to be an inadvertent gap

[19] This again appears to be an inadvertent legal consequence of the
way
the SORs are drafted

[20] Letter from Meg Munn MP to the Lawyers’ Christian Fellowship (17th
November 2006).

[21]
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/12/nxmas112.xml

[22] Meg Munn MP, Second Delegated Legislation Committee ‘Equality Act
(Sexual Orientation) Regulations (Northern Ireland) 2006 [Column 16]

[23] Joint Committee on Human Rights (Legislative Scrutiny: Sexual
Orientation Regulations) HL Paper 58, HC 350, para 63 – 67

[24] Regulation 7(1)(c)(iv)

[25] Jeremiah v MoD [1979] 3 All ER 833

[26]
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=441542&in_page_id=1770

[27] Joint Committee on Human Rights (Legislative Scrutiny: Sexual
Orientation Regulations) HL Paper 58, HC 350, para 65

[28] Publication of the Government SOR consultation paper

[29] The Prime Minister’s statement about catholic adoption agencies

[30] Government response to the SOR consultation, page 9

[31] Notwithstanding interventions and points of order

[32] Ruth Kelly MP, 7th March 2007 (Government response to the SOR
consultation, page 6)

[33] Government SOR consultation, page 7

[34] Government response to the SOR consultation, page 15

BIANCA RODRIGUEZ
08-05-2007, 06:19 PM
As a mature christian lady, but with a very open mind and no religious denomination, but a solid faith in God, I would like to write my comments about this issue. I believe that God loves the sinner, but not the sin. I know many homosexuals that are very good people, decent and educated people, but I know some others that shows their deviations with no respect for other people at all. I disagree with the people who thinks that homosexuals are not born that way, that they develop the homosexuality. Most of homosexuals are born that way, but some of them keep it to themselves because they are ashamed or scared. Some others developed their tendencies because of another factors. When we are fundamentalist about the Word of God, our tendency is to judge and criticized. The only one who has the right to judge is God. Nobody else. Don't forget! Nowadays, I'm against the protests and the demands of homosexuals about equal rights, including to marry between them and even adopting children. Married is for two people of different sex (man & woman) and children should be raised by a couple of different sex. Children needs both figures, both examples. God made it that way, guys. There's no other option. As per homosexual couples, that's their life. If they choosed to live together for the rest of their lives, that's their choice. But, please, don't pretend to have the same rights as an heterosexual couple. Don't pretend that everybody has to applauded your lifestyle. Keep it by yourselves. I respect you with all my heart as human beings, but I cannot agree and feeling pleased in seeing two men or two women kissing, hugging and something else...
God bless you all.
With respect,
Bianca Rodriguez.

SERay
08-05-2007, 07:38 PM
Very well put Bianca! I agree completely. There are many church attendees who can quote extensive lengths of scripture, but are so full of self-righteous pride that their tongues spill forth only judgment. This is not God's heart nor is it the message of Jesus. Be it known, knowledge without humility and love yields a judgmental spirit.

I reflect on John chapter 8:1-11 about the woman caught committing adultery. When Christ was left standing alone with the accused, Jesus said to her, "Neither do I condemn you. Go, and sin no more." He did not judge her, nor are we to judge anyone. It is another thing to call into accountability one who claims the name of Christ and is guilty of sin that leads to death. That MUST be swiftly dealt with and as written in 1 Peter Chapter 4, judgment BEGINS in the house of the Lord. However those outside the church, who choose to live as those destroyed in Sodom and Gomorrah, must be willing to face there own consequences. It is not for us to judge.

Genetically speaking, people are often born with a propensity to misdirected affections much like children born as transgender. This is not spiritual in origin, this is a physical reality that can become a spiritual issue. Homosexuals are no more evil that anyone else who have committed sin. However, because their position in life is marked by many just scourgings of scripture, they are quickly labeled as reprobate. Can we say the man who has a lust for underage girls is born with this unnatural desire and is subject to unfair judgments? Or has the man become immoral by progressive choices that resulted in a pedophile tendency? What I do know is each person is ultimately responsible for their own choices. If I am to heed a deviation of my sexual orientation that is a perversion of God's moral absolutes, then I will receive my just end if I never repent before death.

Therefore we should choose carefully, making sure our choices reflect God's standard from his human guide book called the Bible. Inspired by God, written by man. Even if there are grammarical errors or if the story is an allegory, the Spirit that is behind the Holy Book is God's Spirit. Do not become consumed by who said what or how it is written as foolish men do. Rather be open to God's Spirit through the essense of the messages written. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

I write this to those who ignore the clear warning in scripture regarding the homosexual lifestyle. "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) One must argue the authenticity of the scripture and deny the source of origin to justify continuing in this sin. I must say man wrote it therefore I have grounds to disqualify it. Then I am left to constuct my on moral code or what is right and wrong. Scripture quotes God, the one who sins MUST die! Christ died for us, but we must recieve His death and follow his precepts... obey his teachings.

There are members in Christ's church or who serve in the church as leadership and claim fellowship with God through Christ. The practicing homosexual is not in Christ, they do not have His Spirit nor are they genuine Christians. One cannot continue in and knowingly practice sin and have Christ's Spirit which is the seal of salvation. When Christ comes in, we are changed, despise known sin and flee from it. THAT is the test for yourself to know if your conversion is authentic. Practicing homosexuals WILL be separated from God eternally if they don't repent completely. This is an absolute truth and denying it will only increase the veil of darkness shrouding the discernment of the soul.

Please review article on homosexuality from the main site here: http://www.eternalpath.com/homosexuality.html (http://www.eternalpath.com/homosexuality.html)